tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post4332335308420282731..comments2024-03-28T09:19:27.451+00:00Comments on RevK<sup>®</sup>'s ramblings: BT charging for fixing a faultRevKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-46957300190617013822014-06-08T20:58:18.122+01:002014-06-08T20:58:18.122+01:00It makes sense to me - the initial 12 month contra...It makes sense to me - the initial 12 month contract is supposed to be to recoup the installation costs; once a line is installed and paid off, there's no justification for that minimum term any more. The £11 charge for changing the routing/billing seemed more than enough, but a further 12 month term as well!? For a BTW-BTW migration, there really is no excuse there.jas88https://www.blogger.com/profile/05563592458314214904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-91491849707990005242014-06-08T20:51:24.681+01:002014-06-08T20:51:24.681+01:00Interesting. That is not the way around I would ha...Interesting. That is not the way around I would have expected it - previous supplier held to 12 months I assume, but new supplier only one month? Interesting.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-78691397468497112582014-06-08T19:46:53.295+01:002014-06-08T19:46:53.295+01:00It's not how I read it - I'm quite possibl...It's not how I read it - I'm quite possibly being dense, but eg from the Ofcom release (http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/2014/05/plans-to-ensure-quality-of-service-in-repairs-and-installations/) the following text seems fairly explicit re Wholesale: <br /><br />"Also, where an existing superfast customer switches to a different supplier, the minimum length of the wholesale contract between BT and the new supplier would reduce from a year to one month. This gives flexibility for telecoms providers to offer shorter retail contracts."Timthornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01821597114397421921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-74049336668446943172014-06-08T09:08:08.537+01:002014-06-08T09:08:08.537+01:00If you read that, it says the 12 month term still ...If you read that, it says the 12 month term still applies and does not require wholesale to mirror the existing openreach terms let alone mirror a reduced charge for migrates.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-80702679698503601792014-06-08T00:17:23.678+01:002014-06-08T00:17:23.678+01:00I understood OFCOM was introducing new regulations...I understood OFCOM was introducing new regulations to deal with this: http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6469-switching-between-fttc-services-to-become-cheaper.htmlTimthornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01821597114397421921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-82986099188144712662014-06-06T10:55:49.364+01:002014-06-06T10:55:49.364+01:00Oh I totally agree.
I just meant that there's...Oh I totally agree.<br /><br />I just meant that there's nothing in it for most ISPs to fight this, so you'll probably be fighting solo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-30394246152100801792014-06-06T09:32:23.139+01:002014-06-06T09:32:23.139+01:00This is not in the interests of the customer, basi...This is not in the interests of the customer, basically. They get stuck with 12 months with an ISP which they would not have to, even if keeping the service and moving to a new ISP. My issues are (a) bad for customer, and (b) a rip off by BTW who have no justification for the charge other than because they can.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-29961350269524158882014-06-06T09:18:37.187+01:002014-06-06T09:18:37.187+01:00"We currently have an ongoing battle where BT..."We currently have an ongoing battle where BT will charge two ISPs for the same service for the same time"<br /><br />I think this is the basis for your failure to understand.<br /><br />BT might charge the ISPs, but the ISPs charge the customers the same!<br /><br />Sky doesn't care that it gets charged for 11 months remaining on a 12 month contract, the customer pays.<br /><br />And if a new customer is moving _to_ Sky, brilliant! Sky has an excuse to get them to sign a new 12 month contract.<br /><br />Why is any of this a detriment to Sky? Why would they try and get BT to change it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-39109676680567235162014-06-06T07:15:33.586+01:002014-06-06T07:15:33.586+01:00WLR3 renumbers are possible, but actually add noti...WLR3 renumbers are possible, but actually add noticeably to the cost! Annoyingly you can't get DSL on an aux working line, else we'd get a second line installed on same number, get DSL working, and cease the first line. An LLU operator would have a slightly easier job, yes. And oddly PSTN lines from Openreach don't have a minimum term!RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-42078557385053189482014-06-06T07:13:03.120+01:002014-06-06T07:13:03.120+01:00I hope my staff are doing everything possible to s...I hope my staff are doing everything possible to sort these lines for you, Tony, in spite of the challenges of working with BT.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-45656400770049637772014-06-06T07:07:50.336+01:002014-06-06T07:07:50.336+01:00We have had cases where migrating to TT fixed a fa...We have had cases where migrating to TT fixed a fault, and where upgrading to FTTC fixed a fault. The problem is that those don't even have the "final" engineer saying he found a BT issue to use as an argument. If installing a new line solves the issue that is pretty much proof it has to have been a BT fault, but they won't see it like that sadly.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-54848665420411635442014-06-05T22:44:00.206+01:002014-06-05T22:44:00.206+01:00That contrast is particularly bizarre - in essence...That contrast is particularly bizarre - in essence, BT are claiming it's easier to install a whole new line than to fix the existing one?! Absurd, considering a valid repair strategy would be to replace the existing line and assign the existing number to the new one!<br /><br />Indeed, with unbundled PSTN operators it might actually make sense to handle faults that way, as long as the minimum contract terms don't get in the way: nice and easy for them to get the replacement line set up with the old line's number. Harder with WLR3 presumably, you can't just swap numbers between lines can you?<br /><br />(Meanwhile, I think I'd rather like to get a Broadband Boost job booked on my grandfather's TalkTalk line at home - but TalkTalk use that name for something unrelated.)<br /><br />Interestingly, Openreach say the introduction of Broadband Boost raised first-visit resolutions to 94% from 45% and reduced repeat visits from 26% to under 5% - which would seem to suggest that previously, about 29% of faults went unresolved entirely!jas88https://www.blogger.com/profile/05563592458314214904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-49322300896799310722014-06-05T22:04:53.285+01:002014-06-05T22:04:53.285+01:00Works has one at the moment there's almost no ...Works has one at the moment there's almost no point in fighting.. Both lines of an Office::1 link become unstable overnight. <br /><br />If BT had any competence it'd be easy.. show them the graphs from AA, they look at it, go fix the lines (dodgy connection somewhere I guess).<br /><br />What would *actually* happen. Engineer turns up during the day, declares 'right when tested' and charges.<br /><br />It's quite depressing, really.<br />Tony Hoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485210895681350152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-42847228441542589412014-06-05T21:57:24.658+01:002014-06-05T21:57:24.658+01:00Wouldn't both competent engineers then get a l...Wouldn't both competent engineers then get a little overworked?Tony Hoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485210895681350152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-40684077102796726492014-06-05T21:41:06.549+01:002014-06-05T21:41:06.549+01:00Hear hear! We quite agree!Hear hear! We quite agree!The Backup Exec Goathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16532538047698437455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-38955509906933314442014-06-05T21:40:31.722+01:002014-06-05T21:40:31.722+01:00Indeed - and this is something we're about to ...Indeed - and this is something we're about to do with one customer - because we're sick of them not fixing the current line.The Backup Exec Goathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16532538047698437455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-40630630496194891762014-06-05T20:58:19.904+01:002014-06-05T20:58:19.904+01:00Funny enough, I have a line fault at the moment (s...Funny enough, I have a line fault at the moment (sorry, I'm not A&A). No dial tone but (slower) DSL sync. Had this once before - problem in the road between exchange and my property. This time tests have come back as customer property fault - visit required. My master socket is the 2nd PSTN in the house and was installed using a 2nd pair on an EXTENSION socket of the 1st PSTN, Therefore I can almost guarantee it's going to be blamed on an internal wiring issue, even though the other PSTN is fine and this one has no internal wiring - the master NTE5 is the only one on that line. Acquaintance that works for BT Openreach (but not on PSTN sadly) agrees that it's probably BT-side fault but contractors are a rule unto themselves (as we know!),sjoramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15289670013327656710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-57778436302523931722014-06-05T20:57:34.684+01:002014-06-05T20:57:34.684+01:00Yes - the logical arrangement would be for Openrea...Yes - the logical arrangement would be for Openreach to transfer the remaining contract term to the acquiring provider. So, if I were one month into the year on my office line* I could just migrate to A&A with an eleven month term remaining.<br /><br />(* Sky transferred it from Be, without reconciling "residential ISP only, so we don't do VAT receipts" with "this is a business/pro ISP we just bought, of course lots of the customers are businesses and need VAT receipts". Relevant here in fact: the move of ADSL from Be to Sky took place six weeks before FTTC activation, so avoiding Sky would have meant two changes of ISP/service, rather than just changing to FTTC after the bulk migration.)jas88https://www.blogger.com/profile/05563592458314214904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-76478414596772506572014-06-05T20:43:19.295+01:002014-06-05T20:43:19.295+01:00Well, yes, but would then have so few customers th...Well, yes, but would then have so few customers that migrating between customers would not be common. The nice thing is BTW are big enough that migration could, if they were sensible, not have this extra cost, which makes it easier for customers as ISPs would not have to hold them to term either. This has to be something OFCOM should be prompting - indeed, why not convince Openreach not to hold to term when migrating between wholesale providers so all migrates would be easier?RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-42486009166208536172014-06-05T20:31:05.389+01:002014-06-05T20:31:05.389+01:00With regards to the double line charging, could yo...With regards to the double line charging, could you setup a non-profit holding company which purchases all connections and commits to the 12 months with BT Wholesale. Then the switch between ISPs happens in the holding company and BTW are none the wiser :Dbatfastadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13727627380156105031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-84535498289737931152014-06-05T20:23:35.981+01:002014-06-05T20:23:35.981+01:00I think I averaged almost two per week until I/A&a...I think I averaged almost two per week until I/A&A tracked the fault to a segment of the BT Wholesale core network ending 50 miles away ... about half of those turning up without even telling me or A&A beforehand! (Purely by luck, on days I was working from home anyway - otherwise, presumably there would then be missed-visit charges to fight as well...)<br /><br />What is really needed is to start with an agreement of what the fault is - for example, "01632 960000 has no dial tone at NTE5 test socket", "ADSL service on 01632 960000 is corrupting packets larger than 960 bytes". Then, they either A, admit, confirm and fix it, B, justify not doing so, or C, prove that the fault was someone else's fault (bad customer router, ISP issue, whatever).<br /><br />The idea of failing to deliver a working service, then failing to fix it, and charging for that failure, is ludicrous - but then, so is the asymmetry of charging customers when the customer isn't available as agreed, but not offering compensation when BT/Openreach themselves fail to attend/install as contracted. High time Ofcom did something about that.jas88https://www.blogger.com/profile/05563592458314214904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-91498523681318113412014-06-05T18:54:27.053+01:002014-06-05T18:54:27.053+01:00Will you get 2 or 3 SFI quicker than a new install...Will you get 2 or 3 SFI quicker than a new install, as it seems the average of visit needed to get someone competent....?Brexit factshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499046210014193575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-11495220681743547032014-06-05T18:02:09.072+01:002014-06-05T18:02:09.072+01:00So if an engineer turns up, doesn't fix a faul...So if an engineer turns up, doesn't fix a fault and goes away because he has, say, a hospital appointment - do you get charged for the second engineer? Fuzzycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02901559831822343219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-68168412734270908102014-06-05T17:31:22.440+01:002014-06-05T17:31:22.440+01:00If they're allowed to charge for incompetent e...If they're allowed to charge for incompetent engineers, are you allowed to insist they only use competent ones on your faults? If not, they're probably in the wrong here.Phil Reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07080812032624786351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-57341778238948054682014-06-05T17:08:26.798+01:002014-06-05T17:08:26.798+01:00This is exactly what our solicitor just said. They...This is exactly what our solicitor just said. They have created a system where there is financial incentive for failure to find and fix faults. Alex Bloorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01921882913093861957noreply@blogger.com