tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post5665599172404478156..comments2024-03-28T09:19:27.451+00:00Comments on RevK<sup>®</sup>'s ramblings: Wires only FTTCRevKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-82271443178488013182013-12-24T14:02:00.542+00:002013-12-24T14:02:00.542+00:00At the risk of sounding self-contradictory, go for...At the risk of sounding self-contradictory, go for BT engineer-install, to safeguard against the random BT charges risk.<br /><br />_But_<br /><br />I would much appreciate a choice of AA-recommended PPPoE modems, just as currently, you can buy ADSL2 modems from AA, which AA can support and truly trust, without some random evil BT firmware in them. (Remember recent FTTC bugs, remember the PHORM scandal.) It would be great it have a modem that has AA's recommendation behind it and AA-approved firmware in it.Cecil Wardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16477035597238561739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-22061412238813824592013-12-23T16:46:53.011+00:002013-12-23T16:46:53.011+00:00Ah, sorry about that, I've been a plonker then...Ah, sorry about that, I've been a plonker then. Disregard this whole thread.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-25154028458609389202013-12-21T16:09:31.259+00:002013-12-21T16:09:31.259+00:00Wires only FTTC would work the same as wires only ...Wires only FTTC would work the same as wires only ADSL. I.e. plug in filters would work.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-82007895907436532392013-12-21T15:59:39.389+00:002013-12-21T15:59:39.389+00:00Sorry, looks like I didn't make myself clear a...Sorry, looks like I didn't make myself clear at the start. Supposing a customer has a master socket, but it's pre-NTE5 (for example, see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm). Wires-only ADSL wouldn't have been a problem. But if a wires-only FTTC install demands that one fits a splitter frontplate to an NTE5 master socket, then there's an issue.<br /><br />But, worse still, not every customer in this position will know that they have this issue (if I hadn't worked for 30+ years in telecoms I wouldn't know about types of master socket). So either ISPs will need to ask the customer questions before accepting wires-only FTTC orders, or work out how to deal with the battle between the customer and BT Openreach about who pays to update Openreach's infrastructure.<br /><br />BT will waive the installation fee for a master socket for some customers. But replacing a working master socket with an NTE5 is chargeable - unless you're having FTTC installed.<br /><br />The bottom line is that I wouldn't pay for BT Openreach to upgrade their infrastructure, I'd expect either Openreach or the ISP to swallow the cost. Knowing Openreach, they'd charge the ISP - and I think Adrian's point was that this would kill many years' profit on a line.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-54632210182010065872013-12-19T17:13:17.593+00:002013-12-19T17:13:17.593+00:00Presumably this issue has existed for years now si...Presumably this issue has existed for years now since it would apply equally to an ADSL wires-only service: A&A would pay BT to enable ADSL on your line, post you out a modem-router to plug in - and you'd discover you have no socket for it to plug in to, and need to contact BT to arrange an NTE5 installation.<br /><br />How many people out there would have such an old line, without even ADSL (or indeed modern handsets!) and want to jump straight to a DIY installation of FTTC, without realising it wouldn't be an option because they have no socket for it? Obviously, someone in such a situation should opt for the engineer install instead; trying to cut corners ordering a cheaper installation type which isn't suitable would probably just lead to a delay in service while the engineer visit gets ordered (and charged for) anyway, since it's required. On the bright side, it would be rather cheaper: something like £25+VAT for the NTE5, rather than about four times that for FTTC in the absence of special offers.<br /><br />BT does waive the NTE5 installation charge for certain types of customer even now; I seem to recall it used to be free for anyone having an old-style line, you just had to request the conversion.jas88https://www.blogger.com/profile/05563592458314214904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-67010421039620294852013-12-18T16:53:47.137+00:002013-12-18T16:53:47.137+00:00Thanks - apparently the 25 Mbit/sec figure from Ci...Thanks - apparently the 25 Mbit/sec figure from Cisco is based on 64 byte packets, so as soon as you move to reasonable packet sizes full FTTC speeds shouldn't be a problem for it. A box marked "Cisco" just arrived this afternoon, so barring mishaps I should be getting an idea of the performance for myself by the weekend!jas88https://www.blogger.com/profile/05563592458314214904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-18002703265021423552013-12-16T09:07:20.482+00:002013-12-16T09:07:20.482+00:00I don't run NAT on the 887, though a friend of...I don't run NAT on the 887, though a friend of mine does, on an 80/20 FTTC service, and I've yet to hear him complain about performance or speed. In my own case I've only a 40/10 rated FTTC, though I'm more than happy with the speed through the router and I've not exactly got a straightforward ruleset on there. I've run a nat overload setup on previous Cisco routers, namely an 837 and an 877 and never had a performance issue with the NAT. I can't see you having any issues with your new 887VA. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-72421567061140809942013-12-14T16:57:22.929+00:002013-12-14T16:57:22.929+00:00My point was that an engineer install of FTTC woul...My point was that an engineer install of FTTC would, AIUI, result in an NTE5 being fitted as part of the installation at no extra charge. If I were to order wires only FTTC and it didn't work properly because of the absence of an NTE5, then I would expect the ISP to sort it out at no extra charge to me.<br /><br />I realise that Openreach wouldn't see it that way, but I don't see why I'd have to pay extra to get an NTE5 fitted just because BT haven't keep my line/master socket up to current standards. And don't get me started on ancient dropwire....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-21992012676971491122013-12-14T10:51:41.256+00:002013-12-14T10:51:41.256+00:00I don't think the ISP would have any way of kn...I don't think the ISP would have any way of knowing if there's an NTE5 or not, besides asking the customer. My suspicion is that the installation itself wouldn't fail: BT would enable VDSL on the line, but the customer either wouldn't be able to connect the modem at all (no BT socket) or not get good results (not able to split the VDSL signal off at the point of entry), so they'd then have to raise a separate order with BT (or their phone provider) to get an NTE5 installed so the service will work properly.<br /><br />Probably just something else for the ISP to add to their checklist for orders.jas88https://www.blogger.com/profile/05563592458314214904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-1593051136012335092013-12-13T17:46:15.830+00:002013-12-13T17:46:15.830+00:00What would happen if a customer without an NTE5 ma...What would happen if a customer without an NTE5 master socket placed an order for a wires only installation ? Would the ISP realise at order time that the installation would fail ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-47101211576657015732013-12-11T13:45:01.598+00:002013-12-11T13:45:01.598+00:00I've just ordered an 887VA myself. Officially,...I've just ordered an 887VA myself. Officially, the routing throughput is only 25 Mbps, though I've read it can actually handle full 80/20 FTTC with a simple enough ruleset as long as CEF is enabled.<br /><br />In an ideal world, I think I'd get a /30 - one IPv4 for it, another for my existing firewall machine - and leave the firewall handling NAT for legacy IP. being on Home::1 that doesn't seem to be an option, so I'll either try static NAT or get the 887VA handling NAT instead and hope it can keep up. Do you use it for IPv4 NAT, and if so what's your performance like?jas88https://www.blogger.com/profile/05563592458314214904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-19244055681880236412013-12-04T20:44:30.855+00:002013-12-04T20:44:30.855+00:00I'd love to see the fee for the FTTC install c...I'd love to see the fee for the FTTC install come down. I'd have gone for a wires only install if it had been available. The idea of paying £100 for someone to come out, swap some wires and fit a new NTE5 & filter didn't appeal, especially when BT seem to do a cut down rate for people taking up their own infinity product. Went for it in the end though, and at least I got the engineer to replace the old, corroded, GPO junction box while she was here, so not all bad.<br /><br />+1 for the Cisco 887VA being rock solid on FTTC . The openreach modem has never been out of the box.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-89563492439323263412013-12-04T10:36:08.687+00:002013-12-04T10:36:08.687+00:00This is nothing to do with the contract - damage t...This is nothing to do with the contract - damage to BTs side of the network is a tort or criminal issue. As I say, just the same as someone driving in to a cab. If that someone happened to be our customer we would not expect BT to bill us for the new cab expecting us to bill our end user.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-84184555026997537802013-12-04T10:30:29.786+00:002013-12-04T10:30:29.786+00:00I don’t understand how that could work RevK… Surel...I don’t understand how that could work RevK… Surely the contract is with yourselves and in turn you have a contract with BT. <br /><br />Wouldn’t BT come after you and you’d in turn go after your end user?Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15201880320983259910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-25312294689950932972013-12-04T09:07:51.446+00:002013-12-04T09:07:51.446+00:00I'd go for wires-only FTTC if it came without ...I'd go for wires-only FTTC if it came without a minimum service period. I'm moving house in a few months, so the present minimum service period of 12 months makes it too expensive to order at my current address.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03996533690674798085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-60894154097310440412013-12-04T09:00:18.853+00:002013-12-04T09:00:18.853+00:00+1 for wires only. BT "modem" doesn'...+1 for wires only. BT "modem" doesn't provide any stats and the Cisco 887VA seems rock solid on FTTC *and* supports decent monitoring. Any modem that doesn't support some for of user monitoring isn't fit for purpose IMHO. Oh, and BT randomly upgrade the firmware on their modem when they feel like it - that can introduce bugs without any rollback capability.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10358906626130275959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-75556555476936782912013-12-04T07:53:53.083+00:002013-12-04T07:53:53.083+00:00And, to be quite frank about it, it is not really ...And, to be quite frank about it, it is not really our problem. If someone, even the end user, interferes with BTs network, that is a matter between BT and that person directly. What BT can't do is charge us and expect us to charge the end user, any more than they could charge us if someone drove in to a street cab. Given the hassle of directly charging the end user for damage, I expect BT would just forget about it.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-51734274727726330582013-12-04T07:41:51.158+00:002013-12-04T07:41:51.158+00:00The thing is, with an engineer install I'm not...The thing is, with an engineer install I'm not likely to leave the modem connected where the engineer plugs it in anyway, because I'm going to get him to plug it in to the master socket rather than poking around the inside of my data cabinet...Steve Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09798286430189689578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-54947680026700114702013-12-04T05:38:24.151+00:002013-12-04T05:38:24.151+00:00Technically at the moment you can't - the dema...Technically at the moment you can't - the demarc is at the Ethernet port and anything before that is BT property. They could raise a charge for putting it back to default, just as they can if you modify the master socket.<br /><br />In practice they pretty much never do because the engineers aren't looking for it and don't really care unless you really screw things up.Tony Hoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06485210895681350152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-11587377593685385322013-12-03T22:52:24.361+00:002013-12-03T22:52:24.361+00:00Weigh this up with having to take time off work be...Weigh this up with having to take time off work because you have three SFI engineer visits...!Peter Hickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14408914295045633726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-88919817191147779942013-12-03T20:50:36.300+00:002013-12-03T20:50:36.300+00:00What happens if a user modifies the firmware on a ...What happens if a user modifies the firmware on a Openreach supplied modem,say to tweak the SNRMartinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11106970092602381799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-56215776684694944742013-12-03T20:41:04.269+00:002013-12-03T20:41:04.269+00:00Having to book time off work is a bit of a hassle ...Having to book time off work is a bit of a hassle and it would be nice to have a modem that you could log into for stats etcAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-22304325158079179752013-12-03T20:32:35.209+00:002013-12-03T20:32:35.209+00:00I'm all for an engineer install if they can co...I'm all for an engineer install if they can come at the weekend. Taking a day off work so that I can watch someone swap a modem over isn't something I want to do.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01397856547237058032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-22435923910633723332013-12-03T20:29:50.448+00:002013-12-03T20:29:50.448+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01397856547237058032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-75724225772114255392013-12-03T20:08:36.370+00:002013-12-03T20:08:36.370+00:00I would suggest a *huge* disclaimer stating that y...I would suggest a *huge* disclaimer stating that you really do not recommend "wires only" installs, and that if taken there will be support implications.<br /><br />Then specify exactly how much longer the diagnosis steps will be.Born Todayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10844896400169041973noreply@blogger.com