tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post6561233524956221849..comments2024-03-29T11:00:39.953+00:00Comments on RevK<sup>®</sup>'s ramblings: Changing termsRevKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-37257470409104815292012-02-25T17:27:14.148+00:002012-02-25T17:27:14.148+00:00The ADR has become an process to "protect&quo...The ADR has become an process to "protect" the individual/small from the "big guy", regardless of actual responsibility. It doesn't matter whose fault it is -- the thought is that the "system" is such that the corporation has the resources to protect its own interests and the little guy is not in a position to protect his own. Furthermore, the big guy *must* have been responsible in some way, and in any case, has the financial resources to give the little guy something.Frank Bulkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02004215342995023858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-69106345075800170722012-02-25T04:15:26.333+00:002012-02-25T04:15:26.333+00:00Anyway, hopefully that looks better now. Seriously...Anyway, hopefully that looks better now. Seriously - I am not trying to rip people off here - I want it to be clear what we offer, and some of the limitations in that (largely due to what our suppliers offer us by way of service guarantees).RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-58080246021477386482012-02-25T04:08:28.366+00:002012-02-25T04:08:28.366+00:00What on earth is going on with google, it says I j...What on earth is going on with google, it says I just posted "RevK Feb 24, 2012 08:07 PM". It is 4am FFS.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-15770110937619749962012-02-25T04:07:12.668+00:002012-02-25T04:07:12.668+00:00OK I have removed the bold text saying if we did n...OK I have removed the bold text saying if we did nothing wrong you have no claim, but have left the question about whether it was our fault.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-27395345424498274372012-02-25T04:04:41.974+00:002012-02-25T04:04:41.974+00:00Even so, I may see if I can change the wording. In...Even so, I may see if I can change the wording. In general, if there are matters beyond our control, we would none the less not expect you to pay us for a service we are not providing while providing it. So the force majeure is really down to delays doing things, which we clearly exclude already. I may need to make this a tad better.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-34274979970668052102012-02-25T04:03:14.139+00:002012-02-25T04:03:14.139+00:00OK, I have added "We make clear that if the p...OK, I have added "We make clear that if the problem was not our fault you have no claim - this is not just because of force majeure (i.e. that matters beyond our control are excluded from the contract), but because the compensation agreed in the contract is only for where the cause is our fault."RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-26283766346218620952012-02-25T03:57:26.633+00:002012-02-25T03:57:26.633+00:00I am happy to address that point - you are quite r...I am happy to address that point - you are quite right - customers contract with us and not BT. This is a point that comes up.<br /><br />The fact BT may mess something up and that causes us to fail in providing a service to you is force majeure - a matter beyond our control. We are only agreeing to use all reasonable skill and care to provide the service, so when something beyond out control happens that is a factor - not necessarily in whether we are in breach of contract but it is a factor in whether there is compensation due.<br /><br />The point is that we know various of our suppliers do not guarantee install dates or availability to us, so we make sure, knowing that limitation, that we don't guarantee such things to our customer. We make it clear that things can take time to install, can break, and can take time to fix. So we are offering something we can in fact offer.<br /><br />So when such things happen, we are not actually "at fault" anyway and not in breach of contract, as we never guaranteed they would not happen, and even said that they could happen. We try to be clear and up front about such things.<br /><br />That is because we know our suppliers and their limitations.<br /><br />This ADR case is a huge concern because, having made our contract like that - even though we did nothing wrong and the problem was a matter beyond our control, and even though we used a lot more than "reasonable skill and care" to get BT off their arses and sort the problem for us, we are being penalised. The whole point of us making the contract the way we do is so that we are not penalised in such cases. We have no way to get that compensation back off BT as they are also careful with what they agree in their contract with us and they too were (almost certainly) not in breach of contract.<br /><br />The way contracts work is you don't get compensation if someone was not in breach of contract - well, that is how they have worked for some centuries until ADR came along.<br /><br />In practice we are more than happy to offer reasonable good will gestures and compensation even when it is BT letting us down and even when we cannot get that back off BT. A recent example is a customer without his FTTC line for a week and BT refusing to actually do anything to fix the fault. Personally, I think BT were in breach of contract with us then, but getting compensation for it will be impossible in practice. None the less the customer got a months line rental from us without even asking.<br /><br />So maybe I need to clarify that or reword it a bit to explain.<br /><br />Thanks for the feedback.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-64755727496131697982012-02-24T22:29:15.048+00:002012-02-24T22:29:15.048+00:00Can I also echo some concern re: the "Why was...Can I also echo some concern re: the "Why was the service not working our fault. If it was not our fault, you have no claim." clause.<br /><br />It might be BT's fault, and I know that when it is you guys will move Heaven and Earth to get BT to get off their a***s but at the end of the day I'm your customer and have no contractual relationship with BT wholesale - so I *can't* get any compensation from them; my only recourse is to deal with A&A because that's who my contractual relationship is with**.<br /><br />**yes, yes, I know - never end a sentence with a preposition. I tried contorting it to conform to that particular rule of grammar and then decided it looked better in its present form.nowtotallyhackedoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06687184924812362495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-25800512444893908682012-02-24T20:42:00.208+00:002012-02-24T20:42:00.208+00:00From what you have explained, this does sound like...From what you have explained, this does sound like a scam. Can you post the ADR finding in full so we can see it?Tim Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08306505254480047743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-61799562063189847242012-02-24T18:30:46.763+00:002012-02-24T18:30:46.763+00:00Fair point - on that one there is force majeure ob...Fair point - on that one there is force majeure obviously, and we do try to sort things, but yes, I see your concern.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-63781080376759407572012-02-24T17:56:47.945+00:002012-02-24T17:56:47.945+00:00You'd need to be careful about creating terms ...You'd need to be careful about creating terms that are unfair, or that disclaim some statutory right - particularly as far as consumers go.<br /><br />For instance, wording like "Why was the service not working our fault. If it was not our fault, you have no claim." /may/ hold no truck with the courts if, for instance, you can be held responsible for faults by your supplier. And if it deems that term unfair, you risk having the entire term struckout - including the bits that might otherwise be OK.nick.perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05088943395668172640noreply@blogger.com