tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post8348796948812491230..comments2024-03-28T09:19:27.451+00:00Comments on RevK<sup>®</sup>'s ramblings: Up to 80Mb/sRevKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-44714913824837287942016-08-19T21:57:37.799+01:002016-08-19T21:57:37.799+01:00Same here. I was the third FTTC customer on the ca...Same here. I was the third FTTC customer on the cabinet just over a year ago and got 67mb/s<br /><br />Within 2 weeks this had dropped to 55 and now I get 42mbastudierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03678163083804464298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-24750407643749955432016-08-17T05:20:26.411+01:002016-08-17T05:20:26.411+01:00True there is many components that fit together wh...True there is many components that fit together which ultimately decide speed that occurs. It only takes one component to be slow and that will make the rest slower on that particular tcp connection.<br />A comparison of the issue here is I think comparing a typical well run FTTC isp to Virgin Media. On VM cable you get pretty much guaranteed access speds,however the actual throughput is very variable in some areas, and its a problem that seems to get worse after every speed bump VM do on their products. On the flip side FTTC is a variable access speed depending on your proximity to the dslam and luck of the draw on line quality/crosstalk. However most isp's will generally give you consistent performance around the clock at the access speed. This gives me the view unless you have a extremely bad dsl line, you probably better off than on VM. Obviously occasional throughput drops a few times a year is acceptable, its when it becomes a daily occurrence I have a problem with it.chrcolukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01922782032112968876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-74519522967776101142016-08-05T14:54:26.879+01:002016-08-05T14:54:26.879+01:00Of course, for a lot of cases, my employer solves ...Of course, for a lot of cases, my employer solves the problem differently - I book out a remote server instead, and saturate it, using £3,000 of Apple kit as an overgrown ASR-33, simply because the last mile network is so damn expensive.Simon Farnsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190608047563530091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-10693336613239869132016-08-05T14:46:35.123+01:002016-08-05T14:46:35.123+01:00I'm ignoring cases where I'm not waiting o...I'm ignoring cases where I'm not waiting on the machine - overnight updates don't count.<br /><br />These are the line speeds I see saturating at a point where I am waiting for the network - transferring large amounts of data in order to unblock my work takes time.<br /><br />10G means that I'm blocked for 2 to 3 minutes. 1G means that some situations result in 30 minutes downtime. The "up to 80M" service I have at home means that there are situations where I should simply abandon a task and leave it until I get to the office.Simon Farnsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190608047563530091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-20974294605332886712016-08-05T14:16:17.964+01:002016-08-05T14:16:17.964+01:00Ah, not quite a valid argument (as I am sure you k...Ah, not quite a valid argument (as I am sure you know). Protocols such as TCP are designed to fill the link and so, given devices with gigabit or more interfaces they can fill the link. That does not mean you need that speed to achieve useful tasks in reasonable timescales at much lower speeds.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-14842370958541194592016-08-05T14:13:17.867+01:002016-08-05T14:13:17.867+01:00And, in answer to the question of why people don&#...And, in answer to the question of why people don't care about electricity limits (see other utilities, too), but do about broadband.<br /><br />My peak electricity use in my current house has been 40A single phase, of a maximum 60A on the current fuse (80A on the current wiring if I had the fuse replaced); I've got a huge margin before I hit the supply limits. And that's the supply that I've taken closest to its limit, as I use gas for cooking and heating; if I used electricity for everything, I could reach as high as 80A 3-phase, assuming that I didn't change anything other than the fuel source.<br /><br />In contrast, I know from access available to me at work that I'd hit the limits of a gigabit service from time to time using kit I carry with me on a daily basis, and that for about £500, I could equip my home server to hit the limits of a 10 gigabit service. However, what I can actually buy is an "up to 80M" service that only gets a real-world 60M now that every port in the cabinet is full.<br /><br />So, electricity is at the point where I use about 66% of the maximum available to me; broadband is at the point where I can use about 1,700% of the maximum available to me with no further investment. If you delivered the "up to" speed, I'd still be able to use 1,200% of the maximum available to me. With electricity, I can pay about £5,000 to triple the peak power delivery available to me (forever) without increasing my monthly fees; with Internet access, I'd have to pay about the same in capital costs, plus increase my monthly fee by 10,000% to get to the point where my kit would be the limiter, not your service; I don't even want to consider what 10G service would cost me.<br /><br />And that's assuming that contention effects work out in my favour on the broadband - if not, I could use even higher speeds to allow the rest of the household their Internet access without affecting my speeds.Simon Farnsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190608047563530091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-88963350756290877222016-08-05T13:39:24.629+01:002016-08-05T13:39:24.629+01:00Well, as you know, most of that is down to Openrea...Well, as you know, most of that is down to Openreach, and you can pay to have fibre. Fibre (with fibre tube) takes more space in ducts, so would have to have higher ongoing costs I expect. The economics are, as always complex, and sadly some are horribly legacy based.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-57260216290303260032016-08-05T13:36:00.704+01:002016-08-05T13:36:00.704+01:00Well, yes, it's different, but only because yo...Well, yes, it's different, but only because your suppliers refuse to treat telecoms the same way as the electricity companies treats power.<br /><br />My current electricity service is single phase, 60A fuse, on two cores of 16 mm² per conductor copper cable. If I pay the capital costs, they will replace that copper cable with 4 cores of 400 mm² per conductor copper cable - significantly beefier copper. I then pay the same as I've always paid for service up to 100A/phase, or can choose to shift to commercial up to 630A/phase service if my wallet feels distressingly heavy.<br /><br />Why can I not pay you a capital cost and get the local loop relaid between the DSLAM and my premises to support higher speeds, like I can the power cables? Why do I have to pay an ongoing fee for an EAD instead of just paying for the upgrade then getting GEA service at a perfect 80/20?Simon Farnsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190608047563530091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-54212557843308949832016-08-05T11:07:48.589+01:002016-08-05T11:07:48.589+01:00Well, sadly in that case the analogy does not quit...Well, sadly in that case the analogy does not quite tie up. My point is that it is really unusual for anyone to care in the slightest how "fast" their water, gas, or electric is. There are some similarities in terms of digging in a new figure, or buying two lines and bonding, but they do have different and higher maintenance costs and hence ongoing charges.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-78211683272649475452016-08-05T11:04:25.281+01:002016-08-05T11:04:25.281+01:00To put numbers on it, if you want to wave this at ...To put numbers on it, if you want to wave this at BT:<br /><br />Where my incoming feed is good enough, but a fuse has been fitted that's less than my incoming feed will safely handle because my meter tails are not up to spec, it's £150 to replace the fuse.<br /><br />Where my incoming feed needs replacing to get the service I want, it's £500 to get them out (fixed cost), plus £2/metre of cable route from my meter to the substation for single phase up to 100A. If I want three phase up to 630A per phase, it's £4/metre of cable, plus a further £250 for a new meter; note that if I want to go beyond 100A per phase, I must take out a commercial tariff instead of a residential tariff, but I can switch my three phase supply from 100A per phase to higher limits for £150 each change, and I can go back to 100A per phase limits at £150.<br /><br />Similar applies to gas - it's £700 call out charge, plus £2/metre for pipework from my gas meter to the mains, and if I pay for that, I can get the pressure upped to the regulatory limit for consumer gas.<br /><br />I didn't need to get pricing for water, but I was assured that it was a similar setup - a call out fee in the £500 to £1,000 range, plus a price per metre for pipework from my house to the water mains.<br /><br />So, if I'm buying "up to 80M" service from A&A, and I get a sync speed of 30M, what are the one-off charges you make to improve my line to a point where I can get 80M? :)Simon Farnsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190608047563530091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-6707241788932616342016-08-05T10:40:13.545+01:002016-08-05T10:40:13.545+01:00Interesting.Interesting.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-24574189297225826522016-08-05T10:32:51.245+01:002016-08-05T10:32:51.245+01:00Interesting that you choose water pressure, gas pr...Interesting that you choose water pressure, gas pressure and maximum current draw for electricity. Those are three things I've looked into with respect to house buying, so I've got a bit of a clue to hand.<br /><br />In all three cases, I pay the same rental regardless of current limit or pressure; however, if the current limit or pressure supplied by my utility firm is within the acceptable bounds set by the regulator, but lower than I would like, I can pay a fixed capital cost to have it increased; having paid that capital cost, my rental does not increase.<br /><br />So, I can get 10M ADSL2+ at home; what is the fixed capital cost to up that to 100M service at the same rental as ADSL2+?Simon Farnsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15190608047563530091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-73777202099482390052016-08-03T14:57:19.623+01:002016-08-03T14:57:19.623+01:00jelv, again, that won't help - we have people ...jelv, again, that won't help - we have people selling 40/10 and 80/20 packages now but the "headline speed" advertised is, of course, the top package which is 80Mb/s. The more different levels you have (regardless of different pricing), the more justified they can be in saying that this specific top package is 80Mb/s, and a higher proportion of the people on that package can in fact get the 80Mb/s level.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-27294886986823436192016-08-03T14:12:17.627+01:002016-08-03T14:12:17.627+01:00I thought OpenReach hadn't deployed vectoring,...I thought OpenReach hadn't deployed vectoring, it's just in trial in a couple of locations?Owen Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00890951742186614705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-50878286278722583392016-08-03T13:45:39.260+01:002016-08-03T13:45:39.260+01:00Mostly playing devil's advocate here, as I agr...Mostly playing devil's advocate here, as I agree with you in principle, but selling the "slower" services based on availability would be a clearer way of doing it as far as the customer is concerned, but they'd probably want to pay less if it's for a slower service (like I mentioned in my first post). However it would add a lot of confusion and then people might want to opt for a slower speed.<br /><br />Great news about you dropping the premium for 80/20 though, as that puts you one step closer into my budget when my current contract comes up for renewal!Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04311149395810537121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-2090149173831665342016-08-03T12:25:02.338+01:002016-08-03T12:25:02.338+01:00True, but with electricity / gas (and water in man...True, but with electricity / gas (and water in many cases) use is metered so you pay for what you use, thus the pressure / current draw etc is not a factor to you as such.<br /><br />In fact the electricity one is interesting as if you need a bigger supply you end up paying the electricity board for the work to upgrade it not your actual supplier...<br /><br />The obvious answer here is a metered internet service, unfortunately it seems in the commodity consumer space that doesn't work very well (probably because while most people can easily identify if they're going to be a heavy user of electricity / water / gas, it's a lot harder for your average consumer to identify how much bandwidth they / their family is going to use), and has proven very unpopular in the general case, so it's a bit of a lose-lose situation...Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535977952530779134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-69689188378320367642016-08-03T12:23:10.315+01:002016-08-03T12:23:10.315+01:00The problem is the "up to". If it is adv...The problem is the "up to". If it is advertised as up to 80 people will happily accept that they might not get the full 80 but will not unreasonably expect that they should get at least 50-60. If FTTC products were advertised as 1-40, 10-55 and 30-80 and priced with the same price differences as the wholesale charges it would at least set reasonable expectations. With such a wide range as 30-80 it would hopefully prompt them to actually look at the predicted speed for their line.jelvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06330649794336059930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-36484722780463862042016-08-03T11:40:16.896+01:002016-08-03T11:40:16.896+01:00But people do not feel misled that they pay the sa...But people do not feel misled that they pay the same regardless of water pressure, or that they pay the same regardless of maximum current draw on their electricity feel, or regardless of gas pressure. The modem speed itself does not change the costs of providing the service, it is the backhaul usage (which depends on overall download amount, not speed directly) that has a lot of cost, and in some cases the choice of technology, but not the speed the modem syncs at. Indeed, arguably, a long line costs more to maintain than a short one, so costs are inversely related to speed!RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-61268725720223795522016-08-03T11:37:18.281+01:002016-08-03T11:37:18.281+01:00People are going to feel misled to some extent reg...People are going to feel misled to some extent regardless if their line is such they can't get the full speed of a technology.<br /><br />However, at the moment it is not just about feeling misled, but it feels unfair that you pay the same for e.g. a 1M connection that someone else pays for e.g. a 24M connection.<br /><br />If you remove the unfairness, and make it really clear at purchase time what speed is available and therefore what 'package' you are buying (with enforcement that if the minimum estimate isn't achieved it is either rectified or the customer pays for the level down based on what they actually get), and all providers using the same underlying access mechanism do this, while people will still feel misled by the adverts potentially, at least they feel they are paying a fair price for what they actually get.<br /><br />If the adverts then have to include the minimum package and the maximum (so e.g. "Get 1 to 80M for £10 to £40 per month depending on your line"), that's also less misleading surely?Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535977952530779134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-74774935538545212702016-08-03T08:23:54.529+01:002016-08-03T08:23:54.529+01:00Again, not going to work as people will not know w...Again, not going to work as people will not know which offerings of the different technologies being advertised are better. How does someone know VDSL is better than ADSL or Actual fibre is better than so called Fibre that is via coax copper? The speed possible by the technology (whatever percentile you have to quote from them) is one of the few simple metrics people can compare. Personally I'd say not the best when comparing ISPs but is a good one for comparing the basic technologies.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-3429834569181328602016-08-03T08:20:46.485+01:002016-08-03T08:20:46.485+01:00Totally does not help. Let's say lines actuall...Totally does not help. Let's say lines actually don't change over time, you could have, say, 80 different products one for 1M, one for 2M etc. Then you advertised that you have this 80M product which is up to 80M, average 79.5M and even minimum 79M. Yah, nice advert, but when people try to buy you say sorry, the 80m product is not available there but we have a nice 34M product you can buy instead (does not even have to be a different price). How is that answer any different to the "up to 80M" people feel misled by now?RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-48494332495840206702016-08-03T08:17:43.684+01:002016-08-03T08:17:43.684+01:00Indeed, another issue over which the ISP has no co...Indeed, another issue over which the ISP has no control. Though 10M seems a lot. Other changes like vectoring have increased speeds.RevKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369263214193333422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-54255865392939333462016-08-03T00:25:52.712+01:002016-08-03T00:25:52.712+01:00The only option I see is to stop selling in the fi...The only option I see is to stop selling in the first instance on speeds completely, and only after postcode/phone number information is given that a speed estimate be presented to the customer - anything outside of a reasonable range, say 10-15% slower than that, would be designated a fault.Chad Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06466797076721870606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-64889590771105069672016-08-02T23:16:19.696+01:002016-08-02T23:16:19.696+01:00If the price BT were allowed to charge was limited...If the price BT were allowed to charge was limited for slower speed lines was restricted it becomes a cost issue for BT if a line does not perform. Also you only sell people the price band their line supports which reduces the complaints about lines not performing at the "up to" speed when they are a long way from the cab/exchange - surely that is the main issue with the current system?jelvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06330649794336059930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3993498847203183398.post-21419474412441201222016-08-02T22:55:32.736+01:002016-08-02T22:55:32.736+01:00What about the impact of crosstalk. My FTTC circui...What about the impact of crosstalk. My FTTC circuit has dropped nearly 10 Mb as the cabinet has become further utilisedGaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13617807916105613548noreply@blogger.com