Tindie

Their communications have been really bad - hiding that there was a take over, not explaining what was happening, blaming planned maintenance with no explanation why not simply rolled back, and then PayPal issues which they claimed were fixed, but clearly are not.

We are well over a month now with Tindie being broken - by which I mean this.

Not paying sellers is not paying sellers. This has to be the end of Tindie as a business, surely?

We threatened legal action and they settled the balance by bank transfer, phew, but we cannot start re-stocking products, even with over $1600 of "waitlist" orders, until Tindie are actually normally and routinely paying sellers. That may never happen now, we'll see. Even if they do get back, we may only list one product there for a long while.

We are far from alone.

Someone has even made a "new Tindie", from scratch, in this time. The site https://smallrun.net/ have managed it, with IOSS, and US tariffs, and all sorts, all working, from scratch, which even Tindie do not manage. This proves that Tindie's delays make zero sense. They could have re-made Tindie from scratch in this time - so why buy Tindie at all in the first place? Nothing about this makes any sense at all. i.e. make a new working platform, then buy Tindie brand and domain, and make a seamless change over - that is what you do, unless you are, well, incompetent. Well, IMHO, they are that.

An existing provider that was smaller, and has now grown a lot as a result of this, is https://lectronz.com/ - they are cheaper and bigger than smallrun, but I wish smallrun all the best.

This is where we have set up shop now - if you found us on Tindie, go to https://shop.revk.uk which I can ensure goes to my shop (Lectronz now).

But Tindie are still not communicating and not actually fixing things. It is a shame, they clearly had a reputation which is now in shatters.

CE

CE marking is important for ensuring consumers are buying things that are safe and meet their expectations.

However, CE marking has a lot of implications, in terms of costs and tests, and so on. It basically outlaws your average "cottage industry" type set up.

With modern tech, that "cottage industry" can be technological.

But what if it is not "safe". And this is a very good point.

So there are sites like Tindie, and Lectronz, that act as a platform / marketplace to sell loads of tech that is "home grown" and "cottage industry", with a lot of caveats on T&Cs.

My personal view is ...

• Most consumers need robust consumer protection law
• Buying something should, by default, be 100% safe
• If, and only if, the seller is super amazingly clear on what they sell should there be exceptions.

Oddly this ties in to the utter stupidity that is the fact England and Wales allow selling "raw milk". It is crazy, but the laws require (a) higher hygiene standards, and importantly (b) VERY CLEAR warnings that what you are buying is not safe to drink!

So are PCBs the same?

I make a load of PCBs, and sell a load. As it happens, as a company, we also make some serious routers. For those there is a SHIT LOAD of stuff we do to make totally sure it meets all the requirements. I mean, heck, this is stuff using mains voltage inputs, so it matters. And it costs a lot.

But we also make small PCBs, hobbyist stuff, prototype boards. And the cost of CE marking would be mental. Make 10 PCBs and pay £10,000 for testing and certification. No. That does not work, does it?

So can we sell them without a CE?

This gets in to a grey area, as CE mark is needed for most things but not, for example, prototypes. Indeed, you can order a PCB from China for your own use, and no way they CE mark / certify it for you.

And, after all, if one cannot sell without a CE, then the CE mark itself is pointless - if all sold products have to meet the CE marking requirements there is no need for a CE mark to say they meet it. That only makes sense if there can indeed be products not marked CE and hence declaring they do not necessarily meet the requirements, and so keeping consumers informed of that fact.

Interestingly, one of the key aspects of CE for many of my boards is RF compatibility, and for that the ESP32 module I use is CE marked and certified.

But we want to be 100% clear to customers that these board are not certificated or tested beyond that. They are prototype/dev boards, for specialist/hobbyist use only.

So we came up with a new mark... NONCE (Thanks Alex for help making that). Maybe we should trademark that, LOL. [please note, this is a joke]

And to be clear, what we sell is generally PCBs, in a panel, break off excess parts, and so on. And even if we sell a case it is a two part resin 3D print you use to contain the snapped out PCB. The end user does the "final assembly", it is a "kit".

One of our most popular boards is a controller for air-con - you fit it in your air-con - as an end user you are modifying your certified and CE marked air-con by adding a component. So the whole "as modified" air-con would need re-certification as a product - but only if, as an end user, you want to put it on the market. So, it is complicated. We are looking in to testing that can be done on this product as it sells well, but we are not sure it is even possible for us to certify the board as the "environment", i.e. the final product of which it becomes part, varies so much from model to model - some models even have mains voltages on the internal DC power for my board, so it has to go safely inside the air-con case.

At the end of the day we would not want to, in any way whatsoever, mislead a customer as to what they are buying, ever.

P.S. Apparently I need to explain we are not actually marking boards NONCE, that part is a joke!

Cheeky domains

I have a "shop" on Tindie (albeit currently all zero stock until they get working again, if ever) and now one on "Lectronz".

Ages ago I made tindie.uk domain, it web redirects to the shop on Tindie. Was a bit of fun. And a shortcut for me.

Now I have a Lectronz shop, so I made lectronz.uk in a similar way.

But this is a tad naughty maybe. Well maybe.

• As far as I know neither have a UK trademark so I could even make a legitimate business matching theirs, and even register a UK trademark, if I wanted, using their name.
• They could dispute with Nominet, but if I then did a UK trademark, I may manage to keep it.
• The URLs do actually go to their web sites (albeit my "shop" on their web site) so is not, in that respect, a breach of trademark - it references *them* - so just like someone selling Nike shoes can use the word Nike to do so, in an advert for their "shop". I'm selling/referencing their platform.

But yes, it is cheeky, shall we say. And in hindsight maybe a tad childish and not like me...

So now, given that Tindie is a waste of space compared to Lectronz, even when Tindie is working (which they have not been for a month), I now have a much simpler URL:

https://shop.revk.uk/

It goes to Lectronz.

FYI, if Tindie do come back I may list Faikout only, like we do on Amazon. Lectronz is likely to be the main place for any of the other circuit boards (and Faikout). Amazon only continue because they are one of the first places people go, still, so sensible to be on there, and they handle EU VAT, and shipping - but Lectronz do the EU VAT and US tariffs, so Amazon are only there to mop up on their reputation, as it is.

What is funny about Tindie is being off for a month is that someone has made a "new Tindie" from scratch and got on line and working during that month - https://smallrun.net/. To be fair, if I put my mind to it, I am sure I could. They even have tariffs and EU IOSS all sorted (which Tindie do not, still). How Tindie are so slow and so bad at communicating is really quite amazing.

Lectronz and IOSS

We sell lots in the UK (services and goods), and handle UK VAT, obviously.

Some of you may be surprised that A&A sell all over the world as well - development circuit boards. I have mentioned it, I am sure.

For now, we have used Amazon and Tindie.

Both are a problem...

Amazon

Two good aspects of Amazon, one is they will do fulfilment, so we send stock and they ship to customers. and secondly they handle selling to EU, etc, and the VAT and so on. We do not have to worry about it, and for these exports we are paid the VAT exclusive price.

Amazon have been arseholes, they unlisted the most popular product on a mere accusation, took months to sort with frozen stock, and finally returned after I threatened to sue. We lost all the reputation and reviews, and new listing of same item is selling 20% of the rate.

We now only list this one popular(ish) product on Amazon, as they do sell some, and sell to EU easily. But they did screw us over for no reason.

Tindie

Tindie are useless at tax and VAT. We have to do the shipping. However, we have integrated their API such that staff can see a list of orders, click and get postage via Royal Mail (with all the customs declaration stuff). They put in a jiffy bag, stick on label, and postman collects with the rest of the days postage.

Tindie were selling pretty well, close to Amazon rates, and sometimes more. But we had to ship. The much more slick postage integration I recently did makes it a lot easier and my staff can take over many of the products we sell without any hassle.

Tindie then shut down with no warning for maintenance, lied about it for two weeks, finally said new owners, made site live but with the one important feature of "paying us" (or anyone else) missing. We shipped some more orders, but have now zeroed all stock until sorted. They claim to have sent balance, but we will not know for sure for a day or two.

Lectronz

So we have signed up with Lectronz. They are tiny compared to Tindie, but that seems to be changing (I wonder why!).

They work the same as Tindie, free to list, charge a fee for sales, and card processing charges too (stripe). They even have Tindie API integration to import products (they then need a little work, and Tindie may be blocking some of it).

But they have a lot of extra bits...

Better shipping rates

The shipping is saner, it is all linked to sets of countries, but is all weight based. You set the shipping for a weight range, and you can also set a tariff rate for US as a percentage! This is lacking in Tindie.

They don't have a shipping rate that is price + price per kg (I have asked) as that would be even better as that is how we pay Royal Mail for international shipping.

Tariffs for US

But this means sales to US show (and charge) a specific tariff fee - very clear, and we link in to doing PDDP shipping with Royal Mail.

VAT for UK

We can, and have, told them we are VAT registered and selling to UK has 20% VAT. They shows this and add it at point of sale. Simple.

VAT for EU

This is where it gets fun. For orders shipped to EU, under (I think) €150, they will automatically work out the EU VAT based on target country, and add to the price.

They deduct this from what they pay us, and settle with EU VAT authorities for us.

They then tell us an IOSS code to use with Royal Mail to record as a pre-paid VAT. The customer then has no hassle with paying VAT on import.

This is really hassle free for us and the customer.

Other countries still have VAT on import and so is any order to EU over €150, but they managed to make that all very clear on the checkout page.

Do buy some stuff, here. I will be adding more and more soon.

Tindie vs Amazon

Amazon have been an interesting place to sell, and have sold quite a few things. But oddly the main thing that sells is the Faikin boards. I don't think my other products are not sellable, indeed, I have had direct sales to local A&A customers for a load of other projects, just not so much on Amazon. I generally have a policy of Tindie £ price less 10% for direct sales to A&A customers.

Amazon are making EU sales simple - Amazon buy from us and sell in EU so they sort local VAT. With Tindie the recipient gets a VAT bill on import, sorry.

I started selling on Tindie as well some time ago, and oddly the same is true - most sales are the Faikin. The main reason for listing on Tindie as well was to cover countries Amazon do not do. Well, that is how it started, but now it seems we are selling to people in EU where Amazon do sell. The main reason looks like the extras (a cable, and 3D resin case). These are extremely easy to list on Tindie, and provide a simple up-sell on the original product. They are only a few $ extra but sell well.

Amazon, on the other hand, do not seem to have an easy way to add options or link products that I can see. I will ask for help, though any interaction with seller support needs a deep breath and a lot of patience. But at present I still cannot even list a product - Amazon are actively making it impossible for me to list things, in spite of reassurances. They are insisting I am on the brand registry (something I have tried three times), and they are taking forever to say yes or no. It is odd, it is a simple thing - do I have a trademark? Well yes, there is it with my name on UK trademark web site. How does it take more than a few minutes?!

Well, being able to list the cables and case clearly is helping as Tindie sales are creeping up, and I think this month is the first month that net pay out from Tindie is more than Amazon. That is a milestone I feel.

3D resin printed case, snap together

http://tindie.uk/ if you are interested.

Finding customers

I have the Tindie store set up now. But no good way to promote as yet. My problem is I generally hate the whole advertising industry (as a consumer). This leaves me a tad stuck on how to make people that actually want the products even know they exist. Of course, being that selective (a) avoids annoying people that do not want this, and (b) is highly targeted adverts which I, and others, hate even more, arrrg! You can't win.

A blog post like this will help, I am sure, but even this feels wrong, it is an advert on my blog, which is not that fair really - you did not come here for adverts, did you?

What is fun is I have a few customers (they are actually local, so collect, and do not buy on Tindie, so cheaper), but they sort of self identify as addicts of my tech. I really appreciate their business and feedback and suggestions. I just wish I could find a few more addicts :-)

So I'm interested in the most ethical ways to promote these products - suggestions welcome.

Tindie so far

Well, the Tindie store is set up, and I am adding stuff.

https://www.tindie.com/stores/revk/

The basics

It is simple to use and way way way less hassle the Amazon. Amazon are a pain to make any change to any listing, often even refusing to do so for no good reason. Tindie, is simple, just works, changes are easy and happen immediately.

I am shipping, which is less ideal, but RM click'n'drop works well. I may be able to do more with APIs to tie things up more seamlessly in due course. As this scales up this will no doubt transfer to the sales team in the office.

Options

One nice thing is I can add sales options - which works because I am shipping to order. I did this on the coaster. Which diffuser to use, and if shipped assembled or as a kit. This would not work with Amazon fulfilment, obviously.

The costs

Works out around 10% in payment and Tindie fees. Pretty typical.

Getting paid

Payment via PayPal was a concern, especially as it looked a lot like I could not get PayPal to send me money without open banking crap (giving them access to my account!). However, we sorted the business PayPal account, and that allowed simple fast payment to the business bank account and did not appear to involve any fees, and seemed sensible exchange rate (Tindie is all in dollars). Looks like it is monthly, which is simple enough.

Looks like I have to go in to PayPal and accept the payment and then tell PayPal to send the money, which is a nuisance but not to much so on a monthly basis.

Paperwork

We need to work out VAT and paperwork, but simple enough to convert all to GBP on the monthly payment and generate the right VAT invoice matching the money that arrives - should keep HMRC happy. Again, this is where I may API it all and make it simple and seamless.

API

This is probably next step - make more streamlined for orders and paperwork. I'll write that up in due course I expect.

Trying Tindie

So some good news, it is worked.

I tried Tindie for the "coasters", listed 5 of them, and by the end of the day all sold and shipped.

It looks like they took around 10% in payment processing and their fees, not too surprised.

Now I have the challenges of sorting payment and VAT. I am sure I can, but I need to blog that I am sure.

It seems payment is Paypal, and PayPal sending to my bank account wants open banking access to see all transactions (WTAF?). Trying to add an account with no txns fails, what a surprise! So we need to sort that.

No clue of VAT, so will err on the side of HMRC to be on the safe side I expect. Invoice matching what is shipped.

But the next plan for Tindie is exactly as I said - some small volume boards, from time to time, and the example is an IronMan controller board.

I only need one, and maybe one as a spare, for a mate of my son that does IronMan at events and parties and so on. He has a suit. But the tech is all crap and broken.

So we can do way better, we already sorted the helmet, but the "chest" has speakers, a button, and several LEDs, which means more than one string (one RGBW and one RGB at least). The arc reactor has a nice outside ring with bright RGBW, and some inner RGB, but also a load of single "pixel" WS2812 in the suit.

So the board has :-

1. ESP32S3-MINI-1-N4-R2 processor - Dual CPU, 4M flash, 2M SPI RAM
2. Four LED outputs, well, they are just GPIO with an ESD diode, and power from USB-C and a big cap on the power from USB
3. Two inputs, again GPIO with ESD diode, and 10k pull up, but suitable as buttons
4. USB-C to power it all and do loading code, debug, etc
5. Two (stereo) speaker outputs MAX98357A
6. Two (stereo) microphones TDK ICS 43434 (not needed for Iron Man but cool, so did anyway)
7. Micro SD card (for WAV files for the speakers).
8. All WAGO connectors.

Ordering 5 is minimum and ordering 10 (or even 20) it way more sensible given the many "one off" aspects to costs. I ordered 10.

So plan is we use one, one spare, and 8 on Tindie. We'll see how that goes.

Update: Looks like at least two other "IronMan" specific boards as well (for gloves), so this will be fun.